Growing the Hobby
“Is expanding the hobby a desirable thing, and if so, what is the appropriate way to do it?” Carl, president of World Wide Koi Club asked at (Koi-bito.com forum: http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/outside/8119-growing-hobby.html)
From this followed from James Reilly, ZNA judge: “what does ‘growing the hobby’ mean to you? And what hobby are you talking about?”
“In ZNA it was acknowledged a long time ago that a form of mutual exploitation is good for the hobby. We need business interests and business interests need us.
But do you need to ‘buy something’ to grow the hobby??? And do motives for growing the hobby count in terms of a healthy growth vs a not-so-healthy growth?
And finally, why must growth mean ‘ big numbers of people’? ZNA counts growth as personal growth and growth of the koi culture. Quality vs Quantity.”
“Because many garden ponders come from a consumer or commercial mentality, they see koi people as free workers. This is classic example of a clash of hobby culture with a consumer minded culture.
The early phase of this hobby involves a lot of consuming. And obsessive compulsive buying is very much part of the fun. But after than phase, there needs to be more. A large percentage of casual ponders never make it past the second year of water garden ponding as the thrill fades and the hassle is too great to continue. But out of this consumer fading comes some real koi people. And water gardening is usually not enough to hold most people’s interest after a while.
I suspect that Carl, being Carl and having an assignment and agenda, thinks growing the hobby is something resembling an evangelist movement at this point. Political groups do not make the hobby grow. They political type A’s organize the people under a banner. But organizing raw garden ponders is like ‘herding cats’. The drop out rate and the personalities are challenging. It is wiser to start with the koi and not with platitudes like ” it’s all about the hobby”. It begs the question– what hobby are you referring to? The hobby as defined by the Japanese? Some quirky version of that to include goldfish, longfins and tropical fish? If you are referring to that kind of federation, that is a pure social club as the ONLY common factor are the personalities. Not a good beginning for a new beauracy as there is no focus. So how can that grow the actual koi hobby culture? And for what purpose?
Nope, the only real contribution is to strengthen the existing koi culture. This is unfortuantely no longer what the breeders and dealers what. That just requires too passive a role for the agressive dealer/breeder. In that sense, the koi culture is in the way to growing a consumer orientated garden/koi hobby. Thank God, for the tiny koi culture!”
“Good Morning, I have mixed feelings contributing to this thread. I mean you have to be as dumb as a turnip to not see what Carl is doing here. But the ‘Renfield factor’ aside, The only value of ‘critical mass’ in koi clubs is the financial benefit. Funds needed to put on koi shows and run events is the result of size. But from there on, building numbers has always been a vanity play and has always lead to a ‘ruling political class’ within any hobby organization. Better to focus on the koi. And I tell you, beware platitudes. These slogans always come with an agenda.
Now I’m not vilifying national or international organizations. But they need to evolve from a NEED. Their benefit is size, wealth and ‘something bigger and better than an individual’- an institution.
But is this about the hobby? Spoon feeding score of individuals passing through the hobby via Internet, or trying to keep koi alive in an impossible situation, is not unlike teaching dentistry over the internet. At some point, real life things require real life human interaction. This was the ultimate failing of the original ‘other parish’. No, I think the message board is just that- a ‘message’. Those highly interested in these fascinating creatures called koi, should get the message and seek out the real world koi clubs for hands on input. I mean, look at the confusion that arises in the area of ‘what I said is not what you read!” in these threads. Do you really think that complex information and ‘how to’ details can be communicated on the internet ? Only marginally and sometimes ‘dangerously’. The enthusiastic newbie is a real danger to their fellow newbies. But only someone with a few years experience and the benefit of being in the real world koi hobby can actually recognize that. How many koi were damaged by the indiscriminate use of PP before ORP was introduced as governor for that reactions? And how many though of PP as a health tonic before the details were shared? How many fish were damaged by the internet teachings that bacteria can be cycled a 48 hours if you follow an internet procedure? Just some examples. These subjects and many like it need class room work ( message boards) and homework with the tutor ( a koi club). The organized national and International institutions represent both class room and homework.
THE very best approach to building koi keeping and koi culture is thru a mentor style program – IE the koi club or chapter. Accept no substitute.
And I’ll say it again- do not mistake the efficiency of marketing/sales on the internet for what we have in our koi organizations. One is driven by sales and the other, by knowledge, experience and vetted information.
Honestly, you can give to charity through the United way, the church, the various disease focused foundations and work at the local soup kitchens. Or you can give money to that guy from Nigeria when he writes you on the Internet almost every day asking for donations for his family until his millions come through. Am I the only one who sees the message board organization vs live organizations this same way?
And finally, Carl, your attempts at stealthiness insults my intelligence. Stop insulting me and I’ll stop insulting you. Promise
JR”
“John, I see you have just arrived among us. It is unfortunate as a long time visitor to these boards that you have just began posting with this subject. Very unusual ( or maybe not).
At any rate, where are you located? maybe I can help.
As for the idea that ‘hostility’ exists between people on a message board as a shocking thing, I’m a little surprised? Has it been your experience in life that people always get along? Where are you from again?
I think politics by the way ( of which there is none in this thread) gets a bad name. It is the process by which things eventually get worked out and ran. It is at the center of all human behavior whether it is between governments or marriages. I think what some people do is use the word as a pejorative to defend otherwise undefendable opinions or positions. There is such a thing as tone in politics and that certainly can get out of hand. But in the end, politics is universal and sometimes not for the timid when passions rise and positions become entrenched. Using a false identity for instance. How do you feel about that as a poltical move? JR”
“I did was ask a simple question to start a thread. It got turned into an attack on myself and my club. I didn’t do that. You can ascribe any sinister motives to me that you wish, but I haven’t done anything wrong. Why should someone such as myself, who conducts himself in a civil manner be run off this site? Who benefits from these attacks? The site? The Hobby? Carl
I do think ‘ the lady doth protest too much’.
Did you or did you not include in big letters, WWKC at the bottom of your ‘neutral’ question? Honestly Carl you must be a real estate lawyer? I sharp courtroom guy would not be this transparent to a layman like myself.
JR”
“If I am not allowed to display my club name I will remove it from my sig. I guess I can see that as a justification for the hostility. -Carl
Well there is more honesty then I hoped for, sarcastic or not, I’ll take it.
But really Carl, you are convienently missing Nancy’s point. You are the number one henchmen of the Dark Lord at the moment. You are also the president of a new internet message board. How dumb must we be to read your thread in the ‘generic form’ of a pure question? I mean, come on.
Carl, if you see being a President of a new message board as a ‘door of opportunity opening’ then you must be worldly enough to know that other doors will naturally close to you. Its the way of life. -JR”
“Nice one Larry and very insightful. I also kinda liked Carl even though I would sometimes give him a hard time about the hero worship of his handler. But I always saw him as a straight shooter, maybe just naive about certain things. Now I have doubts and I’m starting to wonder? He absolutely knows what he was trying to do and got caught doing it. But right down to the end, he was pretending. Very disappointing.
I was thinking of ordering some of those nice outdoor pieces of furnisher from the Front Gate catalog for the OUTSIDE. Maybe one of those free standing natural gas log fireplaces? we could all sit around while we discuss these OUTSIDE threads? Some hot chocolate perhaps? What do you gals think? 
JR”
” Seriously, I am disappointed with ‘our Carl’ but I get where he is coming from. But to me he is fooled by a false god and taking on a flawed mission. All organizations certainly have their politics and a not so pretty side. But the two organizations in America , ZNA and AKCA are, all in, pretty amazing and critically important entities for the koi hobby in America.
We’ve talked about the rich history of these organizations and what they have meant to many of us coming up and struggling in the hobby. So I won’t go on and on except to say that what we view as the koi hobby today, did not exist thirty five years ago. In that time, there has been explosive growth in the interest of Japanese fancy carp as a speciality hobby. 384 issues of KOI USA later, we have a body of information that, although not a perfect science, is an amazing body of work. And side by side with that history and experience of the American hobbyist we have an even greater number of issues of Rinko/Nichirin to add tradition and greater perspective to our brief American experience.
But magazines do not write themselves. And our history is rich with people who dedicated themselves to these organizations. Indeed the history of our contributors and volunteers is running three generations old at this point. Those greats like Bob Spindola, John File, Don Covarelli, Jimmy Inouye, Charlie Seu, Tom Liles, Bertrell Caswell and Mitsuru Nakamaru, built a foundation that we all inherited and are the better for it.
And in the home office of Beppu, other early pioneers like Dr Kuroki, Ryo Kamiya, Natsuji Anabuki, Yozaburo Tsuchiya all shared freely the ZNA history and knowledge base with their ‘friends through scales’ all over the world. They are all gone now, but not forgotten because we remain deeply involved and committed to the koi culture they created.
These two organizations have been the rallying banner for 90% of all the koi shows that have ever taken place. Other than the Japanese dealer shows ( just a handful percentage wise) and the BKKS shows of Great Britain ( it’s own rich tradition), all other koi shows are put on by member chapters or member clubs of these two organizations. Too numerous to count, I would guess something north of 600 shows here and around the world have taken place in as an annual ritual under the guidance and judging of these two organizations ? Imagine all that was learned by exhibitors and the general public through the 1960s, 70s, 80s , 90, and into this new century. I can tell you that the tradition of the judge’s role is a serious thing for me and I strive to do the honorary retired judges and those that have pasted, justice when I step into that show ring. I’m sure the other judges know what I’m talking about.
Today the AKCA is larger than ever and the ZNA holds it’s ground in changing times. At one time, ZNA in America was the parent of the koi hobby and AKCA was the child. Today, AKCA by it’s size and growth rate and appeal, is the more active association. But all officers of the AKCA who are aware of this history still foster ZNA in America for what it represents- the keeper of the Flame. And even the most passionate AKCA insiders will tell you that if you cut them they will bleed ZNA. A very neat and potent combination.
Lots of problems in the koi world. There always has been and always will. But these two great institutions survive.
As new champions like Spike Cover, Ray Jordan, Galen Hansen and Steve C position AKCA to be relevant to the hobby in the coming years, Others like Ron Goforth and Bob Brudd work to modernize ZNA. And behind them are scores of others, too numerous to name here, that serve important functions, administration work, fund raising,ect., so that all the needed details follow. The club and chapter officers, the show chairs, the numbers people, the writers, the organizers, the book keepers, the newsletter editors, —— and of course the supporting members. Thousands of them, here and world wide.
Is it any wonder that we all rise up when not-so-subtle pretenders to the throne suggest the center of the koi Universe is now a local internet channel? Dust in the wind, dust in the wind—-
JR”
“Good post, mate!
I was giving this some more thought as I needed to wrap my head around the way many newbies likely must see the hobby today from the one dimensional view given to them by ‘Internet cruising’. And all I can come up with is the observation that , internet cruising and learning all one knows about the hobby from cyberspace information, results in a lack of general focus and an illusion that one is actually IN the koi community? This is tricky but it really comes down to focus and/or fantasy.
One of the most disturbing things about internet communication is the linking of the real world human experience with the artificial world of internet communication. And although real relations can certainly begin with internet contacts, they do not become real until people act and react in real life. Indeed it has become quite spooky when people think of their best friends as individuals they correspond with on the internet. This is just not reality based. And when internet relationships are preferred and seem more real than relationships with family members, friends and co-workers, the red flag should go up.
Assuming we are all reasonably healthy individuals, we understand that we are drawn together by a common interest and in that interest a sense of kindred spirit is born. Seems healthy and can enrich one’s balanced life. But what we then do and how that effects our real life links to others in the koi hobby is the dicey part. Ease of information flow is one thing. But believing voices in the ether over those of fellow club members and real world organizations educational printed words ( who have some accountability in the real world) is key. Personally, I think you have to have your head examined if you send MONEY to a group of strangers to build an internet ether zone on an internet band???? If it is a bonding action, to feel close to a group of kindred spirits, I kinda get that, in a lonely creepy sort of way. But honestly, volunteer work in a local chapter or the attendance at a live koi show seems more healthy and more rewarding to me? Maybe that is just me?
I have cruised the Internet club of controversy and honestly, I see mostly dealers flirting with prospects. And some very naive posts about water gardening with koi. Very weak information. I also see attempts to be relevant. Commandeering of koi health programs from others organizations, listing of other organizations shows and platitudes for independent magazines ‘as if’ they were somehow their association organ. With considerable damage to the further expansion of said magazine by the way- but that doesn’t seem to matter much as it is a useful tool regardless of the harm it does to the prospects of the magazine. This marketing technique to create illusion of service and depth is immoral at the least and dishonest and manipulating in the worst case. Is this the state of affairs of the Internet version of the real world hobby? To BS ones way into legitimacy? I hope not.
It would be one thing to rationalize this heavy handed behavior as if it was for ‘ the good of the hobby’ ( an obnoxious platitude often heard ). That plays well in the ear of the naive newbie. But in truth, the threats to destroy AKCA and AKCA personnel over the years is hardly a cause to be supported by those very organizations?
Personally I find the disrespectful use, by those would-be-kings, of the actual organizational programs they wish to usurp , the epidemy of gall . But again, maybe that’s just me and my personal sense of integrity?
JR”
“Daniel , of all the posts here, yours hits home as the most balanced and reasonable to me.
I think the information on these message boards is great ( albeit only 50%-80% of the time accurate). But just as often, it is misleading and represents the level of the loudest newbie during a given time period. I’ve read some really shocking stuff on some of the boards. And always with a response from the newbie readers of great excitement and eagerness to ‘try that’. And what I know at that moment is that none of my real life koi friends would entertain for a minute such a wacky idea. That tells me something.
I’m currently writing a detailed article for one of the koi magazines. It should take me three or four days and maybe 6 hours of work- organization, fact checking and re-writes. Hopefully the finished product will be dead-accurate. But on Sunday mornings I ramble on NI for relaxation and the joy of sharing. And maybe I’m not as accurate? I’m not aiming to. Instead, I want to put my thoughts and opinions out there for conversation and feedback. Certainly when I give a lecture it is vetted and improved with each presentation. And Koi Kichi II took me a month of checking and rechecking to write my small part.
What I do like about the boards like Koi Bito is the mystique and flavor the Japanese perspective brings to the hobby. I think the history and look into the world of the breeders captures the imagination of the person making a transition from ‘pretty garden pond’ to a world where Koi-carp are steeped in culture, history and exotic far east images. The hobbyist and hobby are definitely richer due to that exposure.
So it would be silly for me to take a stance against internet message boards! It is a part of my everyday life. It is the comparison I am bringing up that in the end, as a social outlet or complete learning experience , highly favors real life experience.
I have been to Japan many times. A few times I was part of a camera crew doing tapes for one of the koi production companies. On other occasions I was with the editors of koi specialty magazines taking shots beside the photographer who’s same photos would appear in Rinko, NI , KOI USA, KOI CARP, BKKS magazine, KOI etc. It always struck me when I saw those photos and the associated articles that appeared in with text, that the ‘ real moment’ was different than the portrayal in the glossy print. Maybe part marketing or maybe the fact that some things ‘translate’ differently in their passive distant form? In the end, there is nothing like personal experience.
And in the end, this all depends on how much ‘koi’ you really want or need? It is such a deep subject with so many facets. For the serious koi student who wants to know everything about koi and koi keeping, time and multi-level exposure is necessary. And probably the only way to gain that all important PERSPECTIVE. I would certainly include some of these Message boards as a must have in that quest. Just as I would highly recommend certain books, magazines and LIVE chapter/club affiliations. If the koi pond and koi show/club interaction is the classroom , I’d characterize internet message boards maybe as extra reading or maybe a college correspondence course.
And by the way, if there is no group around you, you can always start your own! AKCA offers a kit I believe?
Best of luck to you Daniel , JR”
“By the way, Just recently, there was a ‘professional’ on another board telling a newbie that his tanks run a normal ORP of 400 and with low dose PP treatments the ORP runs up to 525-550 ( with LOW PP treatments!). That simple statement is so wrong and so inaccurate that it borders on being dangerous. This statement will go unchallenged as there is no one on that board sophisticated or experienced enough to understand or interpret what the individual is really seeing and doing. One thing is for sure, the fish are experiencing the abuse and some one will become the owner of those fish. Lets hope that biofouling of the probe ( oxygen released by PP, or actual biofilm) is at work or the wrong type reference fluid in the probe is being used.
My point here is not to yet expose another bad dealer or embarrass the newbies responding in the affirmative to those typed words. But to say and show that every day, very misleading and bad information shows up on messsage boards and it is being ‘learned’ by isolated newbies all over the country. This level of bad info would never be found in print ( and if it was, there would be a rebuttal). And no organization would endorse what was written. The koi hobby is weaker for it and due to it’s presence. Every day, people leave the hobby in disgust due to the fact that their personal experience was too hard. Bad information makes it even harder.
In this respect, the internet as a subculture of learning can be a dangerous and misleading source. Now add the imaginary bonds of friendship and you have a group that defends bad information from the point of clan loyality. Fascinating sociological behavior, except for the poor fish . JR”
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Tags: AKCA, james reilly, JR, koi, nishikoi, ZNA
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